Katya Allison:

Welcome to the GRIN Gets Real podcast, a show for marketers by marketers to talk shop and share insights on the ever-changing landscape of the digital world. My name is Katya, and I am your host on this exciting journey as we talk to our experts who join us. 

 

My guest today is Kaya Yurieff, a journalist from The Information. She joined The Information in April 2021 to launch the creator economy newsletter and write features about the fast-growing sector. She started her journalism career writing breaking news at The Street and has covered technology and social media platforms at CNN. 

 

So put your AirPods in, and turn up the volume, and get ready for my guest today, Kaya Yurieff, as we talk about influencer rates, NFTs, and the recession in the creator economy. 

 

Kaya, welcome to the GRIN Gets Real podcast. I am really excited to have you on. You know, I am a subscriber to your newsletter. So you keep me up to date on all things creator economy. So now you’re on here, and you can share your wealth of knowledge with our listeners as well.

 

Kaya Yurieff:

Thank you. I appreciate you having me on.

 

Katya Allison:

So if you could start by sharing a little bit, just kind of about your background and your expertise, just to lay the groundwork for our conversation today.

 

Kaya Yurieff:

Yeah, sure. So I’ve been a business reporter for about seven years. I started writing about stocks, actually, of all things. And then, I moved to CNN to the business unit in 2017 to cover tech. So I covered big tech, I covered startups, I covered everything you can imagine. And then I narrowed my beat more to social media platforms and kind of focusing on the bigger technology companies. And then, as part of that writing, I wrote a lot about creators and burnout and different types of social media influencers and kind of started getting more interested in that space before joining The Information, where I’m at now. And I write a newsletter about the creator economy.

 

Katya Allison:

And that comes out four times a week, right? It’s Monday through Thursday. Yeah, which really just fascinates me because there is so much changing in the space to begin with. So the fact that you just got, like, your finger on the pulse of it, it was tough to narrow it down.

 

I’m curious about NFT’s and payments, and you know, influencer rates and all of that good stuff. But I always also really like to start off with the basics. And I want to make sure that we’re talking about the same thing when we’re using the terms that we are going to be talking about. So when we talk about the creator economy, how do you define that? Who are the players in that space for you?

 

Kaya Yurieff:

Yeah, it’s a good question. I kind of look at it super simply as it’s a relatively new economic model or system where people with an online following can build an audience. And typically, they’re making money from those fans. There are a lot of players involved. I think people kind of think of, like, creators and the brands, and that’s it. But, you know, obviously, the creators, but also the ecosystem they’ve built around themselves, video editors, business managers, assistants, photographers, and kind of all those roles in between that support behind the scenes. 

 

Then, of course, there’s the platforms, the TikToks, the YouTubes, Instagrams of the world. Pinterest, and LinkedIn are getting involved now more with this. And that’s really where creators are building their audience and distributing their work. 

 

And then, kind of on a similar vein, there’s a ton of startups now that are focused on creators, especially over the past few years. And there are so many sub-sectors of that, but mostly, it’s tools and services for creators. So that could be financial tools, like credit cards for creators or ways to track their earnings. Then there’s companies like Patreon, for membership services. There’s Substack for newsletters and tons of other ways to kind of make money online course providers. You know, we could spend a whole hour talking about kind of all the startups involved. 

 

And then the last two kinds of categories are obviously the brands and then investors who are backing companies that are providing tools. And in some cases, investors are actually investing directly in creators as if they were startups. So that’s kind of how I look at the broad landscape.

 

Katya Allison:

I love it. Investing in people is definitely a passion for me, and, like, when we’re talking about brands, what value would you say creators bring to a brand?

 

Kaya Yurieff:

I think creators have super engaged audiences, and we’ve gotten really sub-niche, I think, especially with the rise of TikTok, and because there are so many creators now, people have found this narrow lane for themselves. So I’ve interviewed creators who have entire Instagram accounts just on cheese boards and building, like, amazing cheese. And that’s, like, their niche. Or, you know, I spoke with a woman who reviews family-friendly cars and talks about things like the cupholders and if your car seat can fit in it and stuff that families want to know that you might not get from a normal car dealership when you’re buying a car. So I think advertisers often want to reach a really specific audience. So you know, whether it’s 18 to 34-year-old women interested in beauty or people interested in cooking, they can find a creator that has that audience that’s super engaged and trust the recommendations. 

 

And I think it comes off more trustworthy than a typical ad. Although, of course, we’ve all seen the sale, you know, spawn caught on Instagram, that’s like, OK, clearly you do not use this product, and but I have gotten savvier at partnering with brands and having a long-term relationship with them where they’re more of an ambassador, and you know, Dunkin Donuts, for example, did a partnership with Charlie D’Amelio and made a drink, you know, named after her that she actually drinks and her followers know that she drinks Dunkin. So I think the partnerships have gotten savvier, and the big value is just reaching those audiences that creators have built that are often very specific.

 

Katya Allison:

With the creators that you have just kind of interviewed and been in touch with, what’s the spectrum of creator? Because you just name some big heavy hitters, some big names, but it’s always like my school of thought is that anybody that has a community that they have an influence over can potentially be a creator as well, too. Now, some of them are obviously a lot more polished and have a lot more support around them. But have you interviewed creators along the entire spectrum?

 

Kaya Yurieff:

Definitely. And I think to the definition of the creator has brought in like a few years, we would have said like oh, a YouTuber or like an Instagram influencer. Now we really think of independent musicians as creators, we think of podcasters, we think of newsletter writers, independent journalists who are going off on their own and writing a newsletter or giving people updates on Instagram. I take a pretty broad definition of it. It’s anyone that’s really building, like you said, a community online and putting out content consistently on the internet. 

 

But yeah, I’ve talked to people across the spectrum. I mean, there’s lots of people, too, that aren’t making money yet, right? Like, there are a lot of meme accounts, for example, like are still kind of just doing this for fun. Or maybe it’s just started as a passion project. And they have a full-time job, and they’re trying to figure out kind of where to go. And then there’s plenty of other people who have quit their jobs and done this full time. 

 

Katya Allison:

To me, that is fascinating. Being able to quit your daytime to create a new version of, like, your daytime job and what that looks like. And it’s not that it’s easier. I think that, you know, creators sometimes just get a bad rap. It takes a lot to put something together. I mean, when I even look at it from a podcast standpoint, right, like to produce one podcast, if anybody knew, right, like behind the scenes, all of the things that have to happen in order to get one piece of content out on a regular basis. And I imagine you also feel that same way, with a consistent newsletter that you’re pushing out four times a week, right? 

 

Kaya Yurieff:

Yeah. Yeah. And obviously, I do have a team that helps me.

 

Katya Allison:

Of course, as do I, but I think that that’s what you’re talking about when you’re when you mentioned the creator economy, right? It’s not just the creator. There is an entire support system behind that. And like, you know, the level of creation, I guess I’m gonna end up using this word so much. But that level of creation really determines how many people you have on your team in order to execute.

 

Kaya Yurieff:

Yeah, but even for a lot of creators, they’re still a one-person show, I mean, for doing this by themselves, which is crazy.

 

Katya Allison:

It is. I think it’s absolutely insane. In the kind of conversations that you’ve had, is there a consistent sentiment from a creator standpoint about brands that reach out to them? And like, what’s that? What’s the creator sentiment behind everything?

 

Kaya Yurieff:

I think the biggest thing is just if a brand can give them creative control because I think a lot of creators get spooked or are annoyed when brands are like, “OK, we want to work with you. And we need this by next Tuesday. And this is the script, and this is what we want.” And I think a lot of creators want brands to just trust them. Like, I know how to speak to my audience. I know it’s gonna resonate. 

 

I was just actually on a panel. And we were talking about red flags and brand sponsorship deals and managers. And this topic came up a lot where, you know, you want to make sure in the contract that, like, they’ve talked about revisions, and like what they expect and, like, you’ve had all that conversation so that a creator then isn’t reshooting a brand campaign five times and wasting time for that. So there are a lot of considerations, but I think the biggest thing I hear is just that the brand really trusts you to integrate them into the content and not exert too much control over the messaging of it.

 

Katya Allison:

I think that’s a great idea, and it’s definitely something that we ourselves really harp on as well too. That’s how you get like that off. Then take content because you want a creator to genuinely know and love your brands. I mean, maybe they don’t have to be in love, but they have to have a very strong like for it, right? 

 

On the brand side, there is the rate fluctuation, right? Like, have you seen the prices? What kind of trends are you seeing in regard to payments? And has it really fluctuated?

 

Kaya Yurieff:

I think this whole industry is so opaque, especially for creators that are just starting out. A lot of times, a creator doesn’t know how much to charge, so they are probably throwing themselves. And that’s probably why you see so much variation. I think the biggest thing is that managers can really help because they’re managing multiple clients. So they have a view and rates and can kind of help negotiate and say, “OK, I worked with X brand for this client, and you have a similar following and engagement levels. So you can actually ask for $3,000 more.” 

 

What’s been interesting is kind of seeing some of the startups that have popped up to help with this. Because you don’t have a manager or you’re just starting out, it can be really hard to know what to charge for. And it also depends so much on what the deal is. Are you doing five Instagram stories, and a TikTok, and a post? That’s more than just doing one thing, right? Or, as long as the exclusivity window for? Can you not post about other brands in the space for a certain amount of time? Or, you know, are they lessons in your content? There are so many things that go into the price. But it’s been interesting to see some of these services come up that are acting kind of like a glass door for creators. 

 

Katya Allison:

Do you see a lot of creators acting as a business for themselves as a creator? So, for example, as a business, you know, I would put together just my metrics, my KPIs, like what it is that I’m bringing to the table by hiring me as like a service provider, for example, right? Like, this is what I can do for you. This is our proven success. So I guess that’s what I’m thinking through—do you see that there are creators shifting to making it a business and acting like a business versus, you know, I’ll post for you, but you need to give me $500?

 

Kaya Yurieff:

So it’s interesting. It really depends on the creator. I think a lot of creators get into this because they’re really passionate about something, or they have a skill and they’re truly creative. So sometimes that transition of, “Wait, I’m actually an entrepreneur, and I’m building a business, and I have to run this accordingly.” For some people, that’s really easy. And for some people, it’s hard. And that’s why a lot of people hire managers to kind of deal with those negotiations and help them run the business side. So they can focus on being kind of the talent and the creative side. But like we said, you know, there are tons of creators that are doing this just all on their own. But yeah, I mean, they have to kind of figure it out. I mean, they are a small business in and of itself. And they are brands, you know, they have a personal brand. So they have to act accordingly.

 

Katya Allison:

Would you say or do you think that because there are, I don’t know—if there are more creators or more people are identifying themselves as creators? And to your point, you know, that’s, you know, there’s a play for the managers representing like, multiple creators. Would you see an influx in talent managers?

 

Kaya Yurieff:

I think there definitely are more creators. I mean, TikTok has been a huge driver of that to just be so much more accessible. I think if you wanted to get started on YouTube or Instagram, it’s really hard. I mean, now they have short-form video, and that’s helping with discovery. But if you’re trying to just build up a traditional YouTube channel, that’s much harder just because there are so many more creators, there are so many more users, and attention, and competition, and TikTok has really ushered in this completely new generation of creators who have been able to build up a following really quickly. Whereas on YouTube, it might have taken someone 10 years to get to the same level of someone, you know, gotten a very short amount of time on TikTok. So I think there definitely are more creators. And with that, the economy around it grows. So, yeah, there are good stats on this. But I wouldn’t be surprised if there are more talent agents or if talent agents are taking on more clients now, too.

 

Katya Allison: 

We’re always talking about the gender gap and payments, right? There are a lot of gaps. There’s a lot of disparity when it comes to it. What do you think about the brands or businesses in the creator economy? What can they do to just kind of combat that disparity between payments?

 

Kaya Yurieff:

Yeah, I mean, I was on a separate panel at SXSW, and we were discussing this topic about how a lot of times you see these big pushes with diverse creators around certain times of the year. So like Pride Month, suddenly, you know, LGBTQ creators are getting this influx of interest, or during Black History Month. And you know, while that’s positive and you want that representation, creators have said, like, we want to be represented all year round, we don’t want them to just be kind of in one month. 

 

We’ve also seen platforms set up diverse creator funds. So Snapchat most recently announced a $3 million a year-long fund where chosen creators will receive $10,000 a month and mentorship opportunities and educational sessions. YouTube and Facebook have both had similar programs for, I think—since 2020. So those are all kinds of positive steps forward. 

 

One thing that I heard from StoryBlocks, which is a provider of stock footage and other kinds of images for creators, is that they’ll sometimes counter a creator with a higher offer, which I think is really interesting, and you don’t hear that a lot where the creator’s underselling themselves. They’ll say, no, actually, this is our rate. And they found that over the long term, that’s actually a better relationship for everyone. So that would be really interesting, especially for underrepresented groups, if brands just took that initiative and said, “Oh, wow, we have this disparity here. These are the steps forward. Maybe we have kind of a set rate based on engagement that will pay everyone.” Because I think a lot of times it just comes down to the negotiation, maybe they have a super-shark as a manager who’s negotiating. But it is, like I said, super opaque. So—but I think there are a lot of things brands and platforms can both do to improve it.

 

Katya Allison: 

Yeah, I think I was actually reading it in one of your newsletters, what the platforms are doing, what the platforms are doing to just kind of balance that out. I think you mentioned Snapchat, but I believe that Meta does something as well too, and Instagram.

 

Do you think that this is a continued conversation within the Creator economy to just maybe narrow the gap?

 

Kaya Yurieff:

Yeah, I mean, I think we definitely should talk about it more. I think all these funds and programs are all positive steps. But I think you can’t just do one program and be like, “OK, great. I solved it.”

 

Katya Allison:

OK, let’s talk NFTs because I’m not an NFT expert, but I do think that there is room, especially in the creator economy, for this to really blow up and to kind of show just the value of a creator. So what effects would you say NFTs have within the creator economy?

 

Kaya Yurieff:

It’s still really early days. Last year, there were a lot of FOMO elements of every day. It was practically a headline of, you know, “Jack Dorsey’s tweet sells as an NFT for a huge amount of money” was no shortage of that. So it was seen as a little bit of a money grab. But I think many creators wanted to sit that out because they don’t want to look like they’re doing some get-rich-quick scheme to their followers. So I think some creators were a little spooked by it. 

 

It’s complicated. Crypto is a totally different language. It’s a new technology, it’s super early days, people have described buying NFTs to me, and it’s super complicated to figure out how to write one. So it isn’t consumer ready yet. A lot of investments are going into the space. Obviously, we’ve seen crypto prices nosedive with NFT prices this year. So that’s cooled, I think, some of the excitement around it, at least from the side. But I think the ethos of web3 and NFT and having more ownership and a new monetization stream. There are parallels between the creator economy. What we haven’t seen as this killer use case. I’m more interested in how creators could use NFTs and pair them with some sort of real-world experiences. We’ve seen that start to happen where you know, maybe you’re an NFT holder, and then that gives you a discount on merchandise, or it gives you a meet-and-greet ticket to their next concert or their next event that they’re going to. So I think if they can pair things and give people real-world value, they might land better with their audience. 

 

But I think now, in the environment we’re in, I’m not seeing a ton of creators start new NFT projects, but there was that FOMO element last year of, “Oh, I don’t totally understand this technology, or I’m thinking about it, but I’m trying to be thoughtful about it.” And then there are just so many NFT projects and so much going on that it can also feel kind of hard to stand out at the same time.

 

Katya Allison:

Yeah, that’s true. And you know, and you’re right, it has definitely gone down. This brings me to my next question. What kind of effect do you think the talks of recession is having or can have within the creator economy?

 

Kaya Yurieff:

The big topic of discussion is definitely around brand sponsorships. Oftentimes, during downturns and recessions, ad budgets are the first thing that gets scaled back and cut. We saw this a little bit during COVID, where a lot of travel influencers were freaking out because they’re like, my whole business is traveling. That’s impossible. Right now, we saw a knee-jerk reaction from brands, pulling back spending and canceling brand sponsorships. We haven’t seen that to quite the same extent now. But it’s an open question of how brands are going to allocate budget. And it’s very possible that they might shift to doing more influencer marketing because it’s less expensive than doing a TV campaign or a subway takeover or a billboard or something like that. So we might see that shift in favor of creators. It’s really early to tell now. 

 

My big question, too, is on disposable income and direct fan monetization. If people are, you know, scaling back their spending and maybe canceling subscriptions to Netflix or other streaming services are stuff that they feel they don’t need, is that going to affect Patreon? You know, memberships for creators or—Instagram is testing subscriptions, and Twitch and YouTube all have these features. Is that—are fans gonna feel like they have less disposable income to support some of those endeavors or pay for creators’ merch, or that’s a question too. Maybe some of the top fans will still be supportive. But that’s a big question as we’ve expanded all these ways for creators to make money. Which pockets of that are going to be impacted the most? It’s still early. There has been some reporting and some agencies that have said that they’ve seen, you know, brands take longer to sign campaigns or ask more questions, or they’re thinking through their plans more, but we haven’t seen this giant across the board pullback yet.

 

Katya Allison: 

Yeah, I can really appreciate what you’re talking about in regards to just kind of disposable income. There’s a part of me that—and I’m really interested in hearing your thoughts on this—but there’s a part of me that’s thinking with brands just kind of pulling back or asking more questions. It’s like they’re not doubling down on like, “OK, I need this influencer to perhaps get me like that sale.” But I almost think there should be, from a brand’s perspective at least, “How can I leverage the audience of this creator that I’m working with?” Right? So maybe they, you know, if consumers, in general, don’t have as much disposable income, and I had originally had this objective of, “OK, they’re going to be my revenue drivers. Maybe I can leverage this relationship with this creator that I have to help build out a community so that when there is that disposable income.” You’ve built out more of a community. There’s more brand equity. There’s more brand loyalty because you kind of have been there through it all as a brand. But I’m curious to hear, do you think that’s BS? It’s OK if you do.

 

Kaya Yurieff:

I think we’ve seen that with longer-term partnerships. They’ve noticed, you know, a creator has flown Delta for a long time naturally and always posts about it, and then they get that partnership. And oftentimes, fans are excited for them because they’re like, “Oh, I know that you actually fly Delta.” So I think putting in the brand consistently through the content, even if you’re not trying to sell a direct product at that moment, just reminding audiences of that is a positive for creators because they almost have a salary where they’re like, “OK, I know I’m doing this long term.” So it can be a win-win. I think it doesn’t always work. And you probably want a mix of short-term and long-term partnerships for sure. I mean, I see this with Rent the Runway a lot, where creators are posting in their Rent the Runway outfit, and they have a code, and it’s there, and they’re showing throughout the year, “Oh, look at all these outfits that I bought. So that’s definitely a strategy. It doesn’t always have to be about converting people at that moment of that campaign. Sometimes the goal of the campaign is just general awareness or downloads of an app or whatever it is. It depends on what the brand is trying to achieve in that moment.

 

Katya Allison:

No, I agree. Now, before we do get to just kind of the prediction question, I’m going to totally throw you completely off. Because I want to know, just based on everything that you see on such a regular basis when it comes to the creator economy, what is that thing that you’re super passionate about?

 

Kaya Yurieff:

I think, for me, it’s really talking more about burnout and addressing that in different ways. Because I think we talk so much about the exciting things of the creator economy and its potential, we glamorize that often. And I think there’s a really ugly reality to this industry. So I’m really interested in the ways that both platforms and startups and creators are helping themselves kind of go through that burnout. 

 

If you look at some of the really early YouTubers, like Jenna Marbles, like, she’s completely fallen off. She’s not posting anymore. We don’t really know what’s going on in her life. And we’ve seen that with a lot of creators. So I think that burnout is the thing that I’m most interested in and the different ways that people can alleviate that. And maybe that’s a longer-term brand sponsorship, maybe that’s subscriptions on Instagram, maybe, you know, what are the solutions for that? Is there something platforms can do to alleviate that pressure to constantly be posting? So I think that’s the thing that I always ask creators about is their mental health and burnout and what they’re doing to kind of alleviate some of that stuff.

 

Katya Allison: 

From an algorithm standpoint, do you see platforms helping creators out with that?

 

Kaya Yurieff:

So it’s come up where YouTube has said, “Look, we’ve looked at our systems, and we don’t penalize people who have taken a break. But then, every creator is a little bit different. I mean, there are so many things that factor into it. But it’s positive that platforms are addressing it and looking at it internally. 

 

I think what’s hard, though, is the incentives are not aligned, where these are all ad-driven models, and they depend on the content and, in large part, from creators. If you look at how TikTok is set up, everyone’s on the For You Page. No one’s looking at the other tab. It used to be called Following, I think, now it’s called Friends. But you’re really on your For You page. So if a creator is not making content consistently, it’s almost like they don’t exist on TikTok because people are looking at the For You Page. So I think it’s a tough problem for platforms to tackle because they need creators to create consistently. I think, maybe on Instagram, it might be a little bit easier to take a break. But at the same time, I don’t know how then that factors into the algorithm and people seeing you’re back. So it’s a little bit of a black box. But I think if platforms can really take a look and make sure that they’re not punishing creators for taking a break, that’s a positive.

 

Katya Allison: 

I love it. All right. Now it’s prediction time. What changes do you see happening within the creator economy? 

 

Kaya Yurieff: 

Yeah. So two things. I think on the business side, I think we’re gonna see a ton of consolidation of startups. I mean, just in the link-in-bio space, there are more than 40 companies that offer a link-in bio link. So it’s a lot of companies across the board that are doing similar things. So I think we’re gonna see, especially in the environment, we’re gonna see, unfortunately, some companies shut down and run out of money, especially as venture capital money is a little bit more scarce compared to last year where it was really boom times. 

 

And I think two, creators are really getting savvier about building their own mailing list. It’s been really interesting to see people revert back to blogging and having a website again because it used to be like, “Oh, that’s irrelevant. Like, my Instagram page is my website.” And I think just over the years, we’ve seen platforms change their algorithms or make changes, or now Instagram is all about short-form video. And if you’re a photographer, what does that mean for you as someone on the platform? So we’re really seeing creators mature and take that next step of trying to build either a brand or an offline business or just have more control over their audience. Maybe it’s just starting a newsletter for the purpose of trying to get mailing lists and being able to direct line to creators. 

 

So I think the platform relevancy is not going to go away. It’s still the best way to distribute your content. But we’re gonna see more creators really taking a hard look of like, “OK, how do I reach my audience?” We saw Instagram have that huge outage last year, you know, what happens in those cases? I think creators will start to take themselves really seriously as businesses. And then, on the business side of just startups, the startup landscape is going to change a lot.

 

Katya Allison:

Yeah, this is juicy stuff. As far as prediction standpoint, I really appreciate you taking so much time with me just to dig in, and I know we just scratched the surface. But thank you so much for sharing so much of your time and your knowledge with us today.

 

Kaya Yurieff: 

Thanks for having me. I appreciate it.

 

Katya Allison:

Now, I know that the topic of the creator economy is broad, and we really only scratched the surface. But I hope that these kinds of thought starters serve as little appetizers to keep the conversation going. 

 

Now, the topic of influencer payments is always top of mind for brands and creators alike. And knowing that there are tools out there to help us all really kind of speak that common language is really helpful. But what I think would be even more helpful is understanding the value of a creator as a business. And as a creator, it’s really understanding the fact that you’re an entrepreneur. And each partnership is really a business negotiation. And for both, it’s all about putting together something that is mutually beneficial. 

 

If you want to hear more, be sure to subscribe to the GRIN Gets Real podcast to get the latest episodes. Give us some stars. I wouldn’t mind five of them. And leave me a review. Connect with me on social media. You can find me on LinkedIn. And if you’re interested in learning more about GRIN, visit our website at grin.co. Until next time, keep grinning.